Talk:Shakshouka/Archive 1

Archive 1

Untitled

I'm not sure whether this article and chakchouka should be merged, but they seem to describe the same dish. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 19:27, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

It comes originally from North Africa and seems to be an amazigh word. As many recipes in Israel, that come from East or South Europa, North Africa or Middle East, it can't be said properly «israeli recipe», as it can be said « jewish recipe ». I'm asking an amazight speaker about the meaning, to confirm that it's a north african word. Anyway, «shakshouka» and «chakchouka» (also said «choukchouka», «tchoutchouka», «tatouka», etc.) are the same, except that there's local variants: in Algeria and, as I can know it, in Morocco, it never contains meat; in Tunisia it can contain «merguez»; some variants are made without eggs. Olivier Hammam 09:42, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Y Done. I forgot to mention it yesterday, but I've completed the merge. Someone had set up a redirect, but didn't move the content from the other article. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 22:49, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

The link to the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs doesn't appear to work, so I removed the (inaccurate) Hebrew etymology. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.206.92.14 (talk) 01:19, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

I removed "In Hebrew it means “all mixed up". Despite the article in the Jewish Chronical, the word shakshuka does not mean that in Hebrew. Check any dictionary. It might be used as a metaphor for something that is all mixed up, like salad in English, but salad does not mean "all mixed up" either. Certainly "all mixed up" is not the etymology -- the source or origin -- of either word, shakshuka or salad.Linguistatlunch (talk) 11:45, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

It cant be a very old dish since tomatoes and peppers where only introduced to the these cuisines after their cultivation in Europe.-- 77.118.41.164 (talk) 00:03, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

In Turkey "Şakşuka" is nothing like what is described here. This one resembles the "menemen". But the turkish şakşuka is more like the Ratatouille. 94.122.192.69 (talk) 18:56, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Turkish saksuka is a completely different dish, I added a more accurate description in the article backed up by reliable sources. No reason for people to argue over factual information. Reinhearted (talk) 00:23, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Similar dishes

This section is confusing, probably because more than one person has contributed to it and, as is so often the case, there's been no check on consistency.

"Shakshouka is similar to the Turkish dish menemen, and the Mexican breakfast dish huevos rancheros but different in the fact that the egg yolks are kept whole instead of scrambled."

Well, for a start we could improve on that with this:

"Shakshouka is similar to the Turkish dish menemen, and to the Mexican breakfast dish huevos rancheros, but different in that the egg yolks are whole instead of scrambled."

But the information is wrong anyway. The eggs in huevos rancheros are not scrambled but fried. And therefore "whole". I would argue that shakshouka and huevos rancheros are pretty similar, and that it's the spices which make the difference. Although I admit that the eggs in shakshouka are more-or-less poached rather than fried. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.136.236.90 (talk) 19:37, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Change "Jewish Dish" to "Israeli Dish"

I have seen this create some confusion among people looking at this article, who don't understand the nuances of the process of aliyah and the creation of the modern israeli society. We should also clarify that it arrived in israel as part of the maghrebi jews migrating to Israel.

Unless I'm missing something here?--Paolorausch (talk) 22:28, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

The thing is the Jewish influence, even arguably extending to the creation of the dish, predates the re-establishment of the Jewish state. I think your points could be further expanded in mainspace certainly. What really pisses me off at the moment is sporadic attempts to deny Jewish linkage of the dish, which is basically racist vandalism. Irondome (talk) 00:34, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

What is racist vandalism is constantly emphasizing it as an Israeli or Jewish dish when it is really a North African dish eaten by all North Africans, Muslim, Jewish, Arab and Berber. It's even become a common dish in some Mashriq countries. Even more aggravating is when moron pro-Israel shills try to exaggerate its uniquely "Israeli" identity as opposed to being part of the common regional culinary heritage. Part of the all too common Israeli attempt at using its Mizrahi/Sephardi population (whom it otherwise historically discriminated against) to appropriate various regional dishes and pass them off as distinctively "Israeli" to naive foreigners. Zionist appropriation of local cuisine or attempt to pass it off as being uniquely Israeli or even broadly Jewish when its eaten by all in the Maghreb needs to stop. It's an insult to the region's peoples, including MIzrahi/Sephardi Jews. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.87.73.241 (talk) 04:21, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

Despite the fact the commentor above is a bigot who's probably unaware of his own bigotry, I have to agree with him on the "Jewish linkage". The dish is definitely not Jewish (it's called in Israel Tunisian Shakshuka for a reason). Almost no one in Israel claims it's Jewish, so what "Jewish influence" do you see exactly? You're very ignorant on the subject in my opinion. While there are some cuisines which are originally Mizrahi Jews and not middle eastern like Jahnoon and Sabi'h, Shakshuka is definitely not part of them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.229.7.61 (talk) 05:42, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

No, I'm not a bigot. That you think so reflects your own ignorance. Israeli appropriation of local dishes and passing them off as distinctively Israeli has been documented and criticized by many academics and historians, including those of Israeli background. Zionism as a settler-colonial movement threatened the Palestinian people. Rejecting Zionism (without adopting an anti-semitic disposition or guilt by association mentality) is a perfectly acceptable viewpoint. That you think my comment is bigotry indicates your delusional understanding of anti-Zionism, as well as the fact that you are probably one of those idiots who thinks Zionism is a nice moral movement and completely oblivious about what it did to Palestinians (in which case you probably lack a human conscience and should probably be avoided all costs). Zionism has no legitimacy in my book and should be fought tooth and nail. But the point still stands - Shakshouka is a North African dish shared by all Maghrebi people (Jewish and Muslim, Arab and Berber and Sephardi). This sectarian Israeli co-optation of all indigenous foods as Israeli Jewish, using the heritage of Mizrahi/Sephardi Jews for its own agenda is disgusting. I would say the same thing if it was a Muslim movement doing the same thing. Hummus, falafel, kanafeh, baklava, shawarma, ful mudammas, shakshouka, kifteh, Ottoman coffee, are not Israeli or distinctively Jewish.The Zionist settler-colonialists adopted the dishes of the locals whom they later mostly expelled. This ideological attempt to make all these dishes Israeli or distinctively Jewish ignores the common regional hertiage of these foods shared by the region's Muslims, Jews, Christians, Druze and others. Jewish communities have their own dishes, indeed, but they also partook in the common regional cuisine. They weren't cut off from their environment, the Zionist narrative of Jewish history notwithstanding. Shakshouka is Maghrebi, not Jewish, not Muslim. Maghrebi. Its as simple as that. For your information, there are many critics, including leftist anti-Zionist Israelis, who have criticized the Israeli co-optation of local traditions in culture to manufacture a certain sense of nationhood even though its cultural appropriation. If Israelis like eating that food, that's fine. Its expected when you move somewhere to adapt the local cuisine. But recognize that its part of the wider regional cuisine (shared by Arabs, Kurds, Armenians, Greeks, Turks, etc) of which Israeli Jews are a part, Zionist Euro-oriented delusions notwithstanding. Pointing that out is not bigotry, especially when the OP (Irondome) has a wikipedia history of pushing a pro-Israel POV on these culinary articles and accusing anyone who disagrees of being racist. I suggest you read the dictionary on bigotry before you accuse me of being a bigot. Pardon the repetitiveness but your ignorance is particularly maddening. 96.87.73.241 (talk) 17:58, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Read Nadia Abu El Haj about Israeli attempts to project a mythologized reconstructed Jewish identity onto the archaeology and landscape of the Levant, at the expense of the many other groups and archaeological heritage present in Palestine. All part of the Zionist nationalist ideal to assert an authentic indigenous unitary monochromatic version of Jewish identity that didn't exist by appropriate various local cultural elements, even though they aren't uniquely or distinctively Jewish but part of the greater MENA region, displacing actual rich diasporic Jewish cultures that developed in Europe, the Middle East-North Africa, India and elsewhere. So spare me the drivel about bigotry.96.87.73.241 (talk) 07:23, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Topic has been beaten to death. Cultural appropriation issues notwithstanding, given that this dish is undeniably a staple food in current vegetarian form across North Africa, some evidence needs to be provided to support less likely claim that dish originated or was 'influenced' by Jewish North Africans who made up 2% of population at peak. Much more likely that Jews adopted local dish throughout various waves of migration to North Africa, then undeniably brought it with them to Israel in 20th Century where it has become popular. Irondome: a 1 sentence statement in Jewish cookbook claiming Jewish orginin is NOT reliable evidence. I am a new poster to Wikipedia, not a banned user as previously suggested, but you do not need to be a Wikipedia expert to understand that evidence is needed to substantiate an unlikely claim. Unless reliable evidence or some convincing argument can be provided, the claim should not be included in the article. Dish should be attributed broadly as North African without making additional unfounded claims as to origin from a small population within. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jimbo.jones (talk • contribs) 23:06, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

Hebrew name in the lede

Hello @ZackTheCardshark: No one says otherwise but its an Arabic word, Hebrew is unrelated. So it doesn't mean you have to put its name because it is used in Israeli cuisine.--Sarah Canbel (talk) 18:13, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

@Sarah Canbel: Thanks, I found my way to MOS:FORLANG and this makes sense. ZackTheCardshark (talk) 21:58, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

Actually, hold on. As I was going to change it back, I checked the source in the "Etymology" section, and it says the word is Hebrew. Now I don't know what to think. ZackTheCardshark (talk) 22:02, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

@ZackTheCardshark: Thank you for leaving this note, I would like to say this dish is a Tunisian origin and I don't think in Tunisia they speak Hebrew, Shakshouka was first brought to Israel in the 1950s by Jews migrating from that area.--Sarah Canbel (talk) 22:25, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

 Done ZackTheCardshark (talk) 02:56, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for your comprehension.--Sarah Canbel (talk) 03:09, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

Recent changes

I have restored the organizational changes made by 161.10.59.76, but would like an explanation of what content needs to be adjusted for NPOV. I also don't understand why you removed content about shakshouka being served as an evening meal in Israel - I don't think it is found on evening menus in all countries, so isn't this quirk worth a brief mention? Seraphim System ^(talk) 16:45, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

Whatever happened to Palestine? Is it to be erased from memory? Not to be mentioned? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Popenda (talk • contribs) 19:02, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

Place of origin

It seems that multiple users are editing back and fourth with one another over the origin of the dish, instead of bickering over and over how about we try to find a resolution instead Reinhearted (talk) 02:37, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

Multiple users have reverted your changes. That is a strong signal that you should stop edit warring. I am restoring the longstanding, sourced version of the infobox. When you changed the infobox to North Africa it made the infobox inconsistent with the (sourced) version of the article by erasing Yemen as a possible origin. I think a Yemenite origin is unlikely for this dish but it is sourced and has been in the article for many years. The removal needs to be discussed because it is controversial. If it's removed from the infobox it should also be removed from the article for consistency, but you should gain a consensus for these changes instead of edit warring. Spudlace (talk) 08:44, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

Cariema Isaacs

@Macrakis: I removed the page needed tag because this is an e-book that does not have page numbers. Spudlace (talk) 20:26, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

@Spudlace: Do you have access to the full text? "According to food historians" is awfully vague; it would be much better to know which food historians it's talking about (which is why I added a tag), especially since in another place in the same book, it says "Shakshuka's origin is Tunisian and is enjoyed across North Africa and the Middle East". Having the full context would help: I wonder if the two passages are talking about two different versions. Perhaps the meat stew version of the dish is Ottoman and the egg version is Tunisian as Gil Marks says.

Unfortunately, none of the histories of Ottoman food I have mention şakşuka, though they mention several other egg dishes, notably enderun yumuratası (which is onion-based): Işin (Bountiful Empire), Yerasimos (500 Years), and Barbu (Earthly Delights). Yerasimos intriguingly mentions (p. 201) a recipe for eggs with tomato in Nedim bin Tosun's book, which I have ordered but don't have yet.

In the meantime, there are lots of RS that call it a Tunisian dish. --Macrakis (talk) 21:18, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

I also thought it needed a second source so I did some more research. Joan Nathan was the best source I was able to find. She's a recognized expert on Jewish cuisine who has won multiple significant awards for her work on Jewish culture and cooking. Spudlace (talk) 21:35, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Yes, and she says it was in Ottoman North Africa according to your quote! Between her and Gil Marks, the story seems to be that the meat stew was Ottoman (unspecified geography) and the egg version was Tunisian. Perhaps specifically Jewish Tunisian, but since Gil Marks only talks about the Jewish aspect of the foods he covers (it is after all a book about Jewish cuisine), that is less clear. --Macrakis (talk) 21:55, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments Macrakis, I'll see if this can be made clearer in the article (only after I've had some coffee!) Gil Marks does say there was an Ottoman dish saksuka (made without tomatoes), that evolved to the modern form of the dish (with tomatoes) in North Africa. Where he writes "When the Ottoman tomato stew reached the Maghreb..." it may just be a typo. It does help to have a second (and third) source to confirm that tomatoes arrive in Europe in the mid-16th century through Spain, and the tomato form of the Ottoman stew originated in North Africa. I guess that's why Nathan's known as the "matriarch of Jewish cooking". Spudlace (talk) 22:18, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

It would be good to get some non-Israeli, non-Jewish sources for the North African part of the history, too. See above in this Talk, where it's claimed that it is pan-Maghrebi, not specific to Tunisia, and not specific to Jews.

Re tomatoes, there is no question that they arrived as part of the Columbian exchange, and I don't think it adds anything to quote Nathan on that. --Macrakis (talk) 22:37, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Why "non-Israeli, non-Jewish sources"? I think it was known in Israel before the 20th-century migrations of Jews, but the content of the article that it was introduced to Israel by Tunisian Jews is sacrosanct around here. It seems that folks are perennially unsatisfied with emphasizing one country as the origin because there is no evidence supporting any of the theories. We only know, generally, that tomatoes arrived in the mid-16th century, and that they were more likely to have reached North Africa before they reached Yemen. So, in evaluating the quality of a source, I think Nathan is recognized for the quality of her work. Spudlace (talk) 00:39, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

It's always good to have WP:Third-party sources when good ones exist. An Israeli source will naturally be Israel-centric, and might not be aware of the full Maghrebi history. A Palestinian source may want to demonstrate that shakshouka predates the Zionist immigration to Palestine, whereas a Jewish source might be inclined to prefer a Jewish origin (even if Tunisian Jewish). Most New Yorkers think of shakshouka as an Israeli dish, because there are more Israelis than Tunisians in New York. A Maghrebi source will naturally privilege a Maghrebi origin. etc. etc. Of course, NPOV says we should report on all reputable POVs.

The Yemeni story right now is based on one newspaper article, which I'd be inclined to discount. I don't think we need to make arguments based on when the tomato arrived in Yemen. --Macrakis (talk) 23:05, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

I ask that you strike the above comment, it is very offensive. It's just not true that an Israeli source will "naturally be Israel-centric" or that Jews did not live in Israel prior to what you are calling "the Zionist immigration". We have two sources, one is a Jewish author, one is an Arab author, and I will make the changes later so the article reflects those views.Spudlace (talk) 23:31, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

I think it's to be expected that the perspective of an author from country X (for all X!) will be different from that of an author from country Y, which is why we have a policy on WP:Third-party sources. --Macrakis (talk) 00:23, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

Re Zionist immigration, there were certainly some Jews in Palestine before it, but the point was that a Palestinian might want to emphasize different aspects of the dish's history. --Macrakis (talk) 17:15, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

By the way, who is the Arab author you mention? --Macrakis (talk) 17:18, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

Need better sources for origin

Most sources agree that the egg dish (as opposed to the meat dishes of the same name) is Maghrebi. As far as I can tell, the claim that it is from Ottoman Turkey (as opposed to the Ottoman Maghreb) or from Yemen come from one newspaper article, which doesn't seem like a particularly solid source, as it doesn't give its own sources. I think we can "demote" those claims as non-mainstream. --Macrakis (talk) 16:31, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Macrakis I don't know if you are aware that this article suffers from routine vandalism to change the origin to Tunisian/Moroccoan/Algerian/whatever. It is certainly likely that it originated in North Africa (most probably Spain to North Africa to the rest of the Ottoman Empire) but there is no evidence of whether it was Morocco or Tunisia. I also think Turkey and Yemen can be removed as unlikely origins. On the other hand, I think the source accurately reflects an ongoing dispute among the communities of Israel, and is mainstream as such, and has value to not be erased from the article that there is these rivalries among Israelis. I've restored the stable version for now. Spudlace (talk) 04:26, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

Recent changes

I noticed Israel wasn't mentioned in the lede at all, so I changed this to Israeli cuisine. Before doing this I searched for confirmation in reliable sources that this dish in its poached egg form is consumed anywhere outside Israel. I couldn't find any such confirmation (although similar dishes like Uovos in Purgatorio are given brief mention). To the contrary, it may be that shakshouka refers mostly to non-egg dishes outside Israel? Then I saw this recently published article:

Shakshuka, which is consumed daily in Tunisia, is referred to by all as ‘Israeli’, while the cultural identity of the Tunisian community in which it was invented is erased.

If this is true it would be nice to have other sources confirming it so we can change the lede back because it definitely wasn't my intention to erase any cultural identities. If no other sources can be found I am going to remove some of this. Spudlace (talk) 01:19, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

Hi, I think it is probably a little inappropriate to define it in those terms, as the dish is widely consumed across the Middle East. I still need to find a good source for this, but it appears to be pretty common knowledge People eat it all over North Africa, Egypt and the Levant, as one would expect of a dish initially conceived in the 16th century. I'm also not 100% sure if the Tunisian specific angle is totally accurate either. Harissa is very Tunisian, but the dish can also be less or even not spicy. It's possible that the dish with harissa is just a Tunisian variant. There is obviously the Algerian chakchouka and I've seen claims of a Moroccan shakshouka too. Here, a Yemeni connection is even posited. By and large, I think reductionist labelling with regards to this dish is likely to be overly simplistic. Iskandar323 (talk) 04:04, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

Ok it's fine with no national cuisine in the lede. I still have my doubts if its widely consumed across the Middle East because none of the sources are reliable by encyclopedia standards. There are similar dishes (like Uovos in Purgatorio and menemen) but I don't think they are called shakshouka in those countries. Most of those blogs copy us so we can't use them. It would be nice to have a reliable source with more details. Shakshuka is just a slang term for shaken anyway. The berber origin doesn't have much supporting it. It could be a play from sofrito too. There are a number of blogs that support this including the one linked above but we don't cite blogs. Spudlace (talk) 04:52, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

• It shoud described as Israeli as it is mostly known as Israeli. It has a history of coming from Mexico and then by Jews who fled pogroms, but it is now part of the essantials of Iaraeli cooking. Free1Soul (talk) 05:18, 30 September 2021 (UTC) sock

Is this some kind of joke? How on earth can a dish that is closely associated with the Maghreb and attested there (Algeria and Tunisia) in sources that predate the creation of Israel be described as Israeli? I have restored the stable version that mentions the region it's associated with. M.Bitton (talk) 12:54, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

@M.Bitton: Thank you for those sources. The source does mention a chakchouka from the colonial era, but it's for an omelette, possibly one of the fritata or egg tajines that go by different names today? Larousse also mentions a chakchouka closer to the dish described in this article. But just as I wouldn't use British primary sources for Indian cuisine, how can we be sure it's accurate to the authentic Berber culture? I am not joking nor trying to erase anyone's culture, and I readily admit my ignorance of Berber culture. My point is only this - 100% of reliable sources I have seen only mention the Maghreb as an influence on the Israeli cuisine, not the significance of this dish in the Maghreb itself. Is it served at the restaurants and cafes? Is it part of a typical Maghrebi breakfast? I haven't been able to find this out. Spudlace (talk) 02:26, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

This book says Israeli. It is part of the standard Israeli breakfast. That it has a North African (and Mexican before) influence doea not make it less Israeli. Free1Soul (talk) 18:02, 1 October 2021 (UTC) sock

@Free1Soul: A book written by a photographer is a joke as far as RS is concerned. No other comments necessary. M.Bitton (talk) 18:16, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

@Spudlace: One of the old sources describes it as an egg and tomato omelette, while the other describes it as a local speciality. I'm not aware of any other Chakchouka in the Maghreb. I wouldn't use old sources either (and those are not the only ones), but the point I was making is that since the dish is attested in the Maghreb long before the creation of Israel, describing it as Israeli makes no sense.

We have no reliable way of determining its significance in a vast region that is known for its rich and diverse culinary history, and even if we did, it would still be irrelevant to the fact that the Maghreb is regarded as its home (where it's still consumed to this day). Likewise, some sources mentioning its influence on the Israeli cuisine don't change a thing with regard to the fact that everything about it is Maghrebi, starting with its name. For instance, in her book "Culture and Customs of Israel", the anthropologist Rebecca L. Torstrick mentions its influence while acknowledging its home, by describing it as one of "the most renowned dishes" of the Maghreb. M.Bitton (talk) 18:16, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

To suggest that Shakshouka is an israeli dish is like suggesting that Borscht is American. My Maghrebi friends constantly remind me that the reason it is popular in Israel is that Magrehbi Jews took it there! The article text seems to support this too. -Roxy the sceptical dog. wooF 20:48, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

Ok ... there just isn't anything in the article text about Maghrebi cuisine other than as a point of origin for an Israeli dish. There is some language ambiguity for non standard food terms. Sometimes egg shakshouka is called ojja. There's also الباذنجان شكشوكة without eggs. The food language may not be standard from Arabic to English so we may be missing some of the details because of Anglicization. It's a very common issue so I don't give etymologies too much weight. Spudlace (talk) 23:03, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

References

Middle Eastern

This was added recently and reverted multiple times until an administrator protected the page. No discussion was started on the talk page but the edit warring has stopped for now. Is there any reason we shouldn't add Middle Eastern to the first sentence while keeping Maghrebi. It's been discussed previously and rejected to change it to Israeli or Jewish. Would the addition of Middle Eastern be an improvement? It has become part of the local cuisine of the Middle Eastern countries. It is just as much Middle Eastern as Maghrebi and often described that way by reliable sources. Spudlace (talk) 18:53, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Describing Shakshouka as Middle Eastern would be misleading at best, as it's no more Middle Eastern than any other dish that was recently introduced there. Please see the previous discussion. M.Bitton (talk) 19:31, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

See my comments to you above. I eat shakshouka here in NE England at least once a week, but I wouldn't call it a Geordy dish, even though (in this case) it has come here from Maroc. I've had terrific fish and chips in Rabat and Casablanca, but I wouldn't call it Maghrebi. - Roxy the bad tempered dog 20:05, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

I wouldn't call it French either, even though it is included in French cookbooks from the colonial era. But, Middle Eastern appears to be widely used by reliable sources. We would have to ignore very many reliable sources characterization of this as a signature Middle Eastern dish. The lede is not a statement of origin. We do include multiple countries (or regions when there are too manny countries to list) where there is strong support for this in reliable sources. Spudlace (talk) 21:08, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Nobody's describing it as French and the cookbooks from the colonial era in question (assuming you're referring to ones cited above) are about Algeria and Tunisia. They adopted it in the Middle East, just like they adopted many other dishes from other places, but that doesn't make the dish Middle Eastern. M.Bitton (talk) 21:24, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

In your words: "How on earth can a dish that is closely associated with the Maghreb and attested there (Algeria and Tunisia) in sources[1][2] that predate the creation of Israel be described as Israeli?" These dubious sources are describing a fritatta dish, not the dish we call shakshouka today. It is a dish of the Tunisian-inspired food of France more than anything authentic to Tunisia, if we are to base our content on French sources from the early 20th century. This is not an ancient indigenous dish. I'm sorry, I feel like I am telling you there is no Santa Claus but the argument abot origin/etymology is not addressing this issue. Spudlace (talk) 22:18, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

There is nothing dubious about the sources and I stand by what I said. If you have anything to add to the previous discussion, then it's still open (there is no need to start a new one). M.Bitton (talk) 22:33, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Your issue seems specific to the adoption of North African shakshuka in Israel and elsewhere. This is ignoring the version of shakshuka common in the Arabian Peninsula, which is very different from North African shakshuka and has been a very common dish for generations. High surv (talk) 06:49, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

“Globally popularized.”

This isn’t indicated in the cited article, which I read. This is a big claim. I am from New York and know people all over America. I inquired just now of many of them and none of us have ever heard of this dish. Is “globally popularized” really accurate? Alexandermoir (talk) 19:02, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

October 2022

Duponiuex, this edit was undone because it reinstated claims that are categorically false. The Jews that are historically associated with Shakshouka are not Sephardic Jews but specifically Maghrebi Jews, because it is a Maghrebi dish. And since it has been a Maghrebi dish for centuries, was only brought to Israel in the second half of the 20th century, and is now presented as Israeli cuisine, then it has been appropriated. If you have WP:reliable sources that somehow prove otherwise, you can seek consensus for changes here on the talk page. إيان (talk) 04:15, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

The "cultural appropriation" accusation (a problematic concept to begin with) for a dish brought to Israel by North African Jews is ridiculous POV that is not accepted by most reliable sources. It is part of the fake narrative of those who want to present Israel as a "colonial" or strange entity imposed from outside instead of an indigenous culture going back to their roots, even when it comes to something as trivial as a meal. All Israeli food is in essence an amalgamation or fusion of dishes from many different Jewish communities that got together. It has nothing to do with the concept of cultural appropriation. You are basically comparing a dish eaten by Middle Eastern Jews for hundreds of years and adapted to Israeli meals (by the same kind or similar Jews) to a white guy in Minnesota wearing a Native American silk scarf. Gefilte fish was not "appropriated" by Israel. It was BROUGHT to Israel by Ashkenazi immigrants and adapted to that country's cuisine, together with many other dishes. Keep your petty nationalism out of the kitchen. Also, the claim that Shakshouka is "more Arab than Jewish" is laughable. What part of the Jpost source that you removed is so difficult to understand?: "To say that this is stolen food – not only is it inaccurate, it’s just lazy. The real reason that everybody in that region cooks the way they do is because of the Ottomans."--Duponiuex (talk) 04:54, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

I thought that that was two regions? - Roxy the dog 05:34, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Just trolling or something?Duponiuex (talk) 06:24, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Duponiuex: The opinion of a chef does not refute scholarly consensus as evidenced in the multiple WP:reliable academic journals that your edit removed. The chef's opinion will not be given WP:Undue coverage on this page. What you contribute on Wikipedia needs to be supported by WP:reliable sources. إيان (talk) 12:21, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

This POV opinion on "cultural appropriation" is not agreed by all experts in the field of cuisine and will not be given WP:Undue weight here.Duponiuex (talk) 12:31, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

• That whole part about Israel is UNDUE and promotional. The history section should be about the origin of the dish and to a lesser extent, a mention of where it was exported to. What some some local chefs think about it is irrelevant and so is the extraordinary claim that it has been "globally popularized". M.Bitton (talk) 14:25, 4 November 2022 (UTC)