Talk:John Belchem

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A fact from John Belchem appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 7 January 2020 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that historian John Belchem's work covers popular radicalism in 19th-century Britain, Irish migration, the Isle of Man, and modern history?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2020/January. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/John Belchem.

Wikipedia

Did you know nomination[edit]

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 00:05, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Comment or view
Article history

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~~... that Professor John Belchem helped ensure Liverpool's UNESCO World Heritage Status, which recognises the city's unique maritime and mercantile history, was not lost in 2018?~~ source: "Liverpool creates World Heritage taskforce". Liverpool Express. 2017-10-02. Retrieved 2019-11-08., "Liverpool retains World Heritage status". BBC. 2018-06-26. Retrieved 2019-11-08.

Created by Goldsztajn (talk). Self-nominated at 17:22, 8 November 2019 (UTC).[reply]

@Goldsztajn: Welcome to DYK! This article does not currently meet the 1500-character prose minimum (1420 right now), so it will need additional expansion. As to other items: new enough; hook is cited to source, backed up and present in article; you are exempt from reviewing another article. An inline citation is needed in the "Awards and honors" section (and that probably should be honours for our British professor). This will meet standards, even on the thin side, if 80 more prose characters are added (WP:DYKCHECK will assist you) and the one section gets its citation. Raymie (t • c) 04:03, 9 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Raymie: Thanks for the review! Character length Done now 1602. Awards and honours (British spelling) Done. Citations added to Awards and honours Done. Goldsztajn (talk) 09:15, 9 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This article now meets the length limit and has had the other suggested changes made. It is now fit to be approved! Raymie (t • c) 17:59, 9 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I came by to promote this, but the hook makes it sound like he did it single-handedly, when he was simply part of a task force. Yoninah (talk) 22:53, 27 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Yoninah: Hi. It's not possible to *help* on one's own; helping implies another person's involvement other than the helper. However, if you're not satisfied with this, perhaps change the verb to assist, to read:

ALT1: "... that Professor John Belchem assisted in ensuring Liverpool's UNESCO World Heritage Status, which recognises the city's unique maritime and mercantile history, was not lost in 2018?"

Thanks for your help :) --Goldsztajn (talk) 23:24, 27 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Goldsztajn: thank you, that is better. But I took a look at the sources and think you're using WP:SYNTH here. One article says he's on the task force. The BBC article says the city retained its UNESCO status, but doesn't mention a task force at all. Yoninah (talk) 02:01, 28 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Yoninah: I've added a reference to the 2018 State Party (ie the UK) submission to UNESCO which includes multiple mentions of the activities of the Task Force of which Belchem is a member. Regards.--Goldsztajn (talk) 10:13, 28 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW, in case you can't find some relevant text and still perceive SYNTH: "Responding to the 2017 Committee decision, the Mayor of Liverpool appointed a Task Force. This external and independent group of experts, chaired by Sir David Henshaw, are investigating and making recommendations to the Mayor on what should be done in order to persuade the Committee to retain Liverpool on the World Heritage List. The work of the Task Force will morph itself into a Trust for the WHS and the timescale for that is ongoing. The Task Force will report to the Mayor on a regular basis, advise and influence the SOCR and DSOCR documents, processes that lead to the WHC, and matters thereafter." "2018 State of Conservation Report by the State Party". UNESCO. Retrieved 2019-11-28. --Goldsztajn (talk) 10:39, 28 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

ALT2: ... that historian John Belchem's work covers popular radicalism in 19th-Century Britain, Irish migration, the Isle of Man, and modern history? "Belchem, John (Charles) 1948– | Encyclopedia.com". www.encyclopedia.com. Retrieved 2019-11-08.
ALT3: ... that historian John Belchem is a fellow of the Royal Historical Society and the Royal Society of Arts? Waller, Philip (2015-08-01). "Before the Windrush: Race Relations in Twentieth-Century Liverpool, by John Belchem". The English Historical Review. 130 (545): 1050–1052. doi:10.1093/ehr/cev152. ISSN 0013-8266. and "Obras de John Belchem". AKAL (in Spanish).

@Raymie: --evrik ^(talk) 16:46, 11 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the ping, Evrik. (Also consolidated some of the signatures.) ALT2 is OK but needs a sentence. ALT3 I find kind of boring. If you can find a citation that covers the scope of his work for the first sentence, I will approve that hook. Raymie (t • c) 02:20, 12 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what you mean about needing a sentence for Alt2. There are several citations that cover the breadth of his work. --evrik ^(talk) 16:19, 12 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Evrik and Raymie: I'm a bit lost here...why is the material about Belchem's work on the Liverpool's World Heritage Status being dropped?--Goldsztajn (talk) 16:10, 18 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Goldsztajn: the sources don't support it, and it's not a strong hook. --evrik ^(talk) 16:12, 18 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Evrik: Cough, um...the sources do support it. Why do you consider it not to be a strong hook? World Heritage Status is relatively exceptional, not something easily obtained. These alternate hooks are simply mundane descriptions of academic activity. Goldsztajn (talk) 16:19, 18 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Read Yoninah's comment from 22:53, 27 November 2019. I think you need to address the issue in the article or in the hook. Otherwise, find another hook. --evrik ^(talk) 16:22, 18 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Evrik: I replied to Yoniah's comments within 24 hours [1] [2]. Is something not displaying correctly? Goldsztajn (talk) 16:28, 18 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

While you may have replied, I don't think you satisfied @Yoninah:. I may be wrong. You may want to consult Raymie as well. --evrik ^(talk) 16:32, 18 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hard to tell; does a lack of response to my clarifications and additions indicate satisfaction or dissatisfaction? Goldsztajn (talk) 16:42, 18 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

ALT2 seems fine. Is encyclopedia.com a common/acceptable citation? I just want an answer on that before I give this a tick. Raymie (t • c) 17:22, 18 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That fact is stated in several places, like "John Belchem - University of Liverpool". www.liverpool.ac.uk. Retrieved 2019-11-08.. --evrik ^(talk) 17:28, 18 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Raymie:. Following the comments from Yoninah I added further evidence to the article of Belchem's membership in the Liverpool Mayor's task force and the specific role of the task force with regard to the World Heritage Status review. Are you dissatisfied with these clarifications?Goldsztajn (talk) 23:10, 18 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, sorry I have been incommunicado due to pressing work issues. I won't be available for serious contributions here until after the weekend. @Goldsztajn: As much as you are adding cites for Belcham being on the mayor's committee / the committee being assigned to work on retaining UNESCO status / and said status being granted, you don't give a source that connects all three. The way ALT1 is worded, it could be said about any member of the committee. ALT2, on the other hand, is specifically about Belcham, and has some very punchy elements IMO. Best, Yoninah (talk) 23:19, 18 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm comfortable with granting ALT2 a tick. Raymie (t • c) 23:55, 18 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Yoninah: There is a source that describes the work of the committee. There is a source that Belchem is a member of the committee. There are multiple sources of Belchem writing about Liverpool's WHS. If a source says "Person X is a member of Committee Y" and another source says "Committee Y has won award Z" it's perfectly reasonable and logical to state "Person X won award Z in collaboration" or "Person X helped win award Z" or "Person X assisted in the winning of award Z". There is no logical reason why a third type of source is necessary. This is not synthesis, just commonsense. However, I can sense that I am unlikely to change your mind on this issue. @Raymie: As such I would like to propose this alternative:
ALT4: ... that historian John Belchem assisted in securing Liverpool's UNESCO World Heritage Status, which recognises the city's unique maritime and mercantile history?" Wainwright, Oliver (2017-07-01). "'Final warning': Liverpool's Unesco status at risk over docks scheme". The Guardian. ISSN 0261-3077. Retrieved 2019-12-19. John Belchem, professor of history at the University of Liverpool, who was closely involved in securing the city's world heritage status-- Goldsztajn (talk) 12:47, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

At this point, Goldsztajn, let's let the promoter decide. --evrik ^(talk) 16:02, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I'm back again to promote ALT2. But Raymie, isn't this article kind of short? It's just 1575 characters for a rather important academic. There is no personal biographical information either. And the ALT2 hook fact lacks an inline cite. Yoninah (talk) 23:58, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's probably fair criticism. Goldsztajn, any way to expand it and place the remaining citation? Raymie (t • c) 02:09, 20 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Yoninah: I have cited the Alt2 fact in the article. I also searched for personal information to add to the article - and found nothing. Today, this meets the minimal requirements and I think we pass it along. --evrik ^(talk) 05:37, 31 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

OK. Restoring tick for ALT2. Yoninah (talk) 00:03, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]