Talk:Dock Ellis/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Secret (talk · contribs) 05:01, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

I'll be reviewing this article, along with a couple of others within a day or two. Secret ^account 05:01, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Take your time, this is a decently long article. – Muboshgu (talk) 05:19, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Yea I feel this is one of the few articles from you that I could review independently that is from my subject area. Considering I'm very familiar with the Yankee subjects that you mostly have in GA reviews right now, I could be a help making the article achieve GA/FA considering I have access to the proper sourcing including many books from that era I own. If I review them, however it might be a burden because of my access to the sourcing. I'm a bit familiar with Ellis as well, who had one of the most colorful personalities in a era filled with them, I think making a proper GA review here will be worth it. I'll review it tomorrow in the afternoon hopefully, right now it's 2 AM so I need to sleep. Thanks Secret ^account 06:21, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Reviewing now....

• I'm surprised there isn't much use of Dock Ellis autobiography, which is considered one of the best and most honest memoirs written by a baseball player. Tons of authors who finally got around to write information from his era uses the book as a key source while doing their research.
  • I don't have access to it. Although I do see that Google Books has an excerpt of it available. I think I did a decent job with sources, so we'll see if this is an issue or not. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:18, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
• "While there, he began drinking and using drugs.[1] Ellis said that he began using drugs at the age of 14.[2]" Both sentences should be combined here, also an explanation on why he started using drugs so early which is key to understanding the article further along.
  • Sentences combined. Not aware of an explanation for why he started using. Are you? – Muboshgu (talk) 00:18, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
    • I had read Ellis autobiography but I don't own a copy, though my local college library has one so I'll rent from there once I figure out my latest health issues. I think it was peer pressure from his friends. Secret ^account 01:52, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
• "four games, and was named all-league" He was named all-league after only playing four games? Bleh do further fact checking for that as it sounds a bit dubious.
  • It's what the source says. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:18, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
    • That doesn't mean the source is accurate on that detail, see if you can find a second source confirming it as source 5 said he played 3 games and no mention of all-league, and I don't remember a all-league mention in his book. Secret ^account 01:52, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
• "He was arrested for grand theft auto, and given probation." Seems misplaced in that paragraph, unless it involved him getting signed for a much lower bonus, which then it should be clarified.
  • That was part of it, yes. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:18, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
• Did any team confront him about his amphetamines use? (I know some players did, but it's not in the article)
  • I didn't find anything on that. Which players did? I didn't find that either. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:18, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
• The Pirates optioned Ellis to the minor leagues;[14] he began the season with Columbus, moved from the rotation into the bullpen.[15] Some word missing there.
  • Fixed. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:18, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
• I noticed alot of sentences begin with He, which gets repetitive, change some words around.
  • Working on that. Probably will do a bit more of it. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:34, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
• He decided to stop talking about baseball with sportswriters.[20] This should be removed, as it's only sourced with a 1970 newspaper piece. Ellis was well known for speaking his mind with the media who had a mixed relationship with him.
  • Removed. Some of the issues I imagined would come up would be this sort of thing: items I left in the article in order to make this a 5x expansion for DYK. Since the DYK, I've tried to condense and clean, but figured I'd miss some things, like that. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:23, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
• Apparently in Ellis autobiography, and several other highly reliable book sources and later interviews, the team flew on a Wednesday, he took the LSD pill that day, slept though Thursday, and only realizing it was Friday thinking it was Thursday because of that reason. I can replace the info and source for you though, but try to use books and scholarly article more often as a lot of what players said back in the 70s and 80s were bull and some journalists get fooled by it.
• Sirbacon.org source can be replaced
  • I can't find his quote about the game in any other source. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:21, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
• He finished third with only 0.402 home runs allowed per nine innings pitched.[28] Random unneeded stat.
  • Removed. There for the 5x expansion, doesn't need to be for GA. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:24, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
• Opening day score?
  • Added – Muboshgu (talk) 00:34, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

To be continued....

• I'm sure there's free images of Ellis out there as he was in the public eye until his death. Flickr may have some, and if they say all rights reserved ask if they can release it to a free license. Be careful though as some of the images there are associated press and so forth that is being illegally used there.
  • I looked through Flickr and found nothing, so I uploaded the one picture you see under a fair use license. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:57, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
• Nothing for 1969 other than he made the roster? Or the early part of the 1970 season?
  • So far not much on 1969 or early 1970, in deeper searching. I added a bit on Steve Blass being demoted to the bullpen, keeping Ellis in the rotation. I'll find more. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:05, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
• He lasted only 2 1⁄3 innings, allowing four hits and four runs, including two home runs.[42] He was the losing pitcher in the game. Can be combined into one sentence.
  • Done. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:05, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
• In his 1980 book, he claimed that wearing hair curlers produced sweat on his hair, which he used to throw a modified version of a spitball.[5] It's Ellis book not Morgan so reword, source says 1976 though I know there been more recent editions of that book.
  • Yeah, but Joe Morgan accused him of throwing a spitball during the 1970s. Ellis didn't confirm it until the book. Clarified. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:09, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
• Ellis had the third lowest walks allowed per nine innings pitched ratio (2.089) and seventh best walks plus hits per inning pitched ratio (1.155).[62] Random stats, use his normal season stats.
  • Walks per nine is perhaps less common, but WHIP is a pretty regularly cited stat. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:39, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
• Healthy to begin the 1975 season, Ellis continued to perform well at the beginning of the season. And then it jumps to an incident in August, add a sentence or two on how well.
• 1978 is missing
  • His 1978 season was nondescript from a statistical standpoint, but was highlighted by his leading a team insurrection against the manager regarding the liquor policy. Corbett fired Hunter after the season and kept Ellis. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:37, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
• Ellis' son, Dock Ellis III, played college baseball. Where?
  • It was college basketball, my mistake. And Cal State Bakersfield. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:10, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
• Honestly because so much is written about Ellis no-hitter why don't you create a separate article on it, as it's clearly one of the more memorable games in history.
  • That might not be a bad idea. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:10, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
• Some of his pitching style and personality is worth its own section, there's very little on his pitching style here other than he threw spitballs and while there's snips and pieces of his personality in the article it doesn't seem like it's fully complete, it mainly what made Ellis one of the most colorful figures in baseball history.
  • Any way you'd propose doing a personality section? I felt it fit best in a chronological look at his career. Anything in particular you think is missing? I'll look into his pitching style. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:29, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
  • I'm not seeing much on his pitches. He had a curveball and a changeup to go with his fastball, but that's all I know so far. There was no PitchF/X back then. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:41, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
    • Oh wait here we go... Hall asked Ellis in their book... – Muboshgu (talk) 17:42, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

See what else you can find on Ellis. On hold for now. Secret ^account 01:52, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

How's this review coming along? Wizardman 02:29, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Secret is MIA. I messaged him on his talk page a while ago and sent him an email a few days ago, with no response. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:17, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes I been MIA hardly have time anymore sorry about that and I saw the email (somehow it landed in my spam folder so sorry for the late reply there), most of my concerns been fixed, I'll comment on a PR or FAC if it happens, just email me, passing. Secret ^account 22:18, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for finishing this off, and hopefully everything's okay in the real world. – Muboshgu (talk) 04:16, 28 October 2012 (UTC)