Talk:Der fliegende Holländer

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Richard Wagner

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Opera

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Requested move 10 April 2021[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: MOVED per request. Consensus has arisen that the common name of the opera in the English language is actually the full-on German name. The consistency that the move will create with other similar articles was cited as a factor in the move, as well. (non-admin closure) Red Slash 22:51, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Flying Dutchman (opera) → Der fliegende Holländer – The English name of The Flying Dutchman is not overwhelming common enough to justify its use over the original German name, Der fliegende Holländer. Firstly, we must consider our Wikipedia practices; all 14 of our other Wikipedia articles on operas by Wagner use the, original, German names; this is the only one that does not. The most authoritative encyclopedia of music uses the German name (Grove), as do the two most important opera houses in English-Speaking countries (MET & ROH); other notable sites do as well (IMSLP, Operabase, Naxos and VIAF). While not fully reliable (but noteworthy, nonetheless), a Google search shows the English name recieves fewer results than the German name; suggesting not only the German name's dominance, but the lack of justification to use the English name. Flying Dutchman (disambiguation) has all English names, yes, but these all go back to the ship, not the opera... this is an opera, not a ship! Aza24 (talk) 23:11, 10 April 2021 (UTC)—Relisting. User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 01:14, 19 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: the last time this was proposed (which you really should have linked to). Johnbod (talk) 03:41, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support, per nom --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:45, 11 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom.--Smerus (talk) 09:28, 11 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support, per nom4meter4 (talk) 15:35, 11 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support always known it by the German name.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:36, 11 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 00:14, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:USEENGLISH per the Google Ngrams[1]. Rreagan007 (talk) 02:33, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Not a valid search; "The Flying Dutchman is the name of famous ship as well as numerous other things, based on the ship, so of course it will have more results Aza24 (talk) 03:01, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- And since it is a German-language opera, perhaps this Ngram is more relevant. And while WP:EN is a ~~policy~~ guideline which says: The title of an article should generally use the version of the name of the subject which is most common in the English language, that is qualified by continuing to read as you would find it in reliable sources (for example other encyclopedias and reference works, scholarly journals, and major news sources).— Ched (talk) 23:50, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per the last time - in particular, the overture is far more often performed in English-speaking countries than the opera, and is normally called by the English name. This makes it different from Wagner's other operas. Johnbod (talk) 03:41, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That would be an argument for the title of an article about the overture, but this article covers the opera, which is played and recorded in German and under a German title these days. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:15, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
In Germany certainly, but not necessarily in English-speaking countries. The opera is best known for the overture (in the Anglosphere anyway), and that is most unlikely to get its own article. See the analyses of usage at the much better attended and argued previous debate. Johnbod (talk) 18:05, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Did you look at the nom: Met, ROH, Grove? The last debate was eight years ago, and even then, a user changed his mind when seeing that Grove changed to German, then already. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:18, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
But plenty didn't, based on the other evidence produced, which is why it closed as it did. Johnbod (talk) 18:46, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I just happened to look at Rossini's Guilleaume Tell and saw that there's a separate article on the overture, - perhaps one for this work might help solving the concern? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:43, 19 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support both per nom, and that the last close was a bit sub-optimal. Wikipedia has in the past, for most things, gone by what the sources say, not by whether or not "I like it" or "I don't like it". — Ched (talk) 22:54, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Would still appear to be the common name in English-language sources. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:02, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose judging from Google Scholar results the English language spelling is slightly more common than German is for the opera.[2][3] They're quite close though. (t · c) buidhe 13:47, 26 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.