Talk:Philip of Sweden

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On 29 May 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved to Philip, King of Sweden. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

Name issues in 2006[edit]

Show us any respectable source which uses "Philip Halsten". This monster creature for a name seems to be a product of Wikipedia. Hope no more inexpertised people perpetuate this. Marrtel 12:08, 2 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, it should be Filip Halstensson and his brother Inge Halstensson as his father is Halsten Stenkilsson. And, of course, his uncle should be Inge Stenkilsson. Apart from the WP:OR in the MoS, what justifies using a name unknown in WP:RS ? The MoS is normative but No Original Research and Reliable Sources are prescriptive. In any case, the use of patronyms reduces confusion in the case of Early and High Medieval Scandinavia, and others, where primogeniture is not common. Angus McLellan (Talk) 12:50, 2 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I am no friend of patronymics in aticle names, except in Russian context. I regard a patronymic similar to a nickname, and to be used only in limited circumstances. Well, he is king "Philip of Sweden", thus no dspute should arise whether that is correct or not. Marrtel 13:42, 2 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Patronymics and epithets are perfectly good ways of disambiguating people, widely used by historians. They are especially common for Medieval Scandinavia, far more so than the arbitrary and inaccurate regnal numbers concocted in the distant past. I can find two or three reliable sources which call the subject Filip Halstensson, The Cambridge History of Scandinavia for example. Apart from the MoS, what backing is there for the article name you have chosen ? Angus McLellan (Talk) 13:57, 2 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. 7 22:39, 14 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Philip Halstensson → Philip of Sweden — Phonetically difficult Swedish patronymics have been removed from all other article names of Swedish monarchs. Kíngs' articles should not have nondescript names that look like they are out of a Stockholm phone book - Joe Schmoe. There has been no other Philip of Sweden, but many different Philip Halstenssons. Above all, consistency please! SergeWoodzing (talk) 05:18, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The conventional name referred to when this was last moved is a Swedish-language name. This king is virtually unknown in English literature. SergeWoodzing (talk) 05:24, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I wanted to do this myself, but for some reason it wouldn't go through. SergeWoodzing (talk) 05:20, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Let's wait for the RFC to finish. An admin will have to do the move after the 1 week RFC is over. 7 05:34, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

- You were not able to move it yourself because the article was already titled Philip of Sweden until User:Berig moved it to the current title in June 2007. Surtsicna (talk) 15:04, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support for consistency with other articles. Rejectwater (talk) 12:04, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support for consistency with articles about other Swedish monarchs and other European monarchs as well. Surtsicna (talk) 15:02, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 29 May 2024[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 21:06, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

– Per consistency with other Swedish kings who were without a regnal number, such as Birger, King of Sweden, Valdemar, King of Sweden, and Albert, King of Sweden. 2601:249:9301:D570:940A:52B5:CCA9:A4A3 (talk) 04:43, 29 May 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 01:06, 5 June 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 04:36, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. For consistency I would do the opposite, i.e. renaming Birger to "Birger of Sweden" etc. Marbe166 (talk) 06:09, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Suggest alternative move for Adolf Frederick. Move Adolf Frederick of Sweden → Adolf Frederick per WP:CONCISE and the updated WP:NCROY ("Only use a territorial designation when disambiguation is needed.") Searches in Google and Google Books confirm that the Swedish king is the primary topic for this name. Consistency is the least important of the article name criteria, and it depends on which group of names the monarch is compared to. Another natural comparison could be to other 18th century Swedish monarchs. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 07:11, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Suggest alternative move for Philip. Move Philip of Sweden → ~~Filip of Sweden~~ Filip Halstensson per WP:UE. Searching post-1970 English literature for filip+inge+halsten returns better quality results than philip+inge+halsten. Neither of the searches brings up very many results. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 09:02, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Filip Halstensson (GBooks search) would also work as a naturally disambiguated name. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 09:11, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisting comment: Relisting for consensus on moving to Filip of Sweden and Adolf Frederick. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 01:06, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Courtesy ping to @Jähmefyysikko, @Marbe166, and @2601:249:9301:D570:940A:52B5:CCA9:A4A3. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 01:07, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Sweden, WikiProject Norse history and culture, WikiProject Biography, WikiProject Royalty and Nobility, and WikiProject Middle Ages have been notified of this discussion. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 01:08, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support proposed alternatives Adolf Frederick and Filip Halstensson. Recent English-language sources tend to use the Swedish names, so the consistency issue mentioned by the OP probably ought to be solved by moving them to Birger Magnusson, Valdemar Birgersson and so on. Rosbif73 (talk) 07:54, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My impression is that modern literature typically leaves the names of the medieval kings (pre-1500) unanglicized. Between 1500 and 1900 anglicized forms are common for some kings, especially for those with the name Charles. After 1900, kings are again not anglicized. I think we should not put much effort into making medieval and post-1500 titles consistent with each other. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 05:42, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would support more consistency within the medieval kings, though. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 06:09, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support moves as proposed or else no moves. Oppose 'Adolf Frederick' (too ambiguous) and any title with 'Filip' (no need to use Swedish here). Srnec (talk) 04:34, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Adolf Frederick" is good enough title for Britannica, so it does seem possible that the Swedish king is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. But I agree that the presented evidence might not be sufficient yet. Using WP:SMALLDIFF, an alternative would be Adolf Fredrik, which is more unambiguous, redirects to the king and is actually more common in Ngrams.

The choice between an anglicized and local name is discussed in WP:UE, which does not give any preference for the anglicized one, but tells that we should use the most common form in reliable English-language sources. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 05:33, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Srnec: where did Adolf Frederick redirect to before the dab page move this morning? Jähmefyysikko (talk) 12:06, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Looking at the history, it redirected to Adolf Frederick of Sweden and had done so since its creation in 2005 – before being moved this morning to Adolph Frederick in order to make way for the dab page, which in turn was at Adolf Friedrich until this morning. @Srnec, could you explain your rationale in making these moves now rather than waiting for the conclusion of this RM? Rosbif73 (talk) 16:54, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Only two of the articles on the dab page have the German form "Adolf Friedrich" in the title. That was my justification for moving. Note that I didn't touch Adolf Frederik. Srnec (talk) 17:20, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A not unreasonable rationale, on the face of it – except that the Swedish king had been the WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT since 2005. Moreover, you don't explain why you chose to do this now, rather than waiting for the conclusion of this RM, and given that WP:NCROY-related RMs have been touchy topics of late. Rosbif73 (talk) 19:19, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If that's the only justification, then I suggest we revert the change of primary topic for Adolf Frederick by moving the dab page to Adolf Frederick (disambiguation). The Swedish king dominates in e.g. Google Books results, and most of those namesakes barely have an English source in their articles, which is an indication that they are not discussed in English literature much. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 03:46, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I entirely agree, the Swedish king is definitely the primary topic, and was the uncontested primary redirect from 2005 until Srnec's recent change. Rosbif73 (talk) 06:37, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Still Oppose. For consistency I would do the opposite, i.e. renaming Birger to "Birger of Sweden" etc. It is the most clear and unambiguous, and consistent with other article titles of Swedish monarchs. --Marbe166 (talk) 08:42, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just a heads up, you can only vote once. 98.228.137.44 (talk) 20:22, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There was a relisting. Marbe166 (talk) 08:51, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I was under the impression that the initial votes carry over after the relisting. 98.228.137.44 (talk) 12:41, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

They do carry over. Renerpho (talk) 01:40, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Technically, they are not votes at all. The reasoning is what's important, and that carries over. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 14:54, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Birger of Sweden is currently a disambiguation page, so that might not be an option. (I did not study whether it should be a dab or not.) Jähmefyysikko (talk) 08:00, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose as per Marbe. We need clarity not more phonetic-linguistic confusion & clutter. There has only been ine Swedish king by the name. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 18:19, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The "phonetic-linguistic clutter" argument is not based on any policy. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 14:54, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Let me problematize the current article title Philip of Sweden a bit. GBooks Search for "Philip of Sweden" in post-1950 English literature returns very few results, all of them low quality (we have geneological tables, fiction, listings, and incorrect references to a tsar candidate). This indicates that the construction "Philip of Sweden" is based on WP conventions only and not on any external sources. It is dubious whether such uncommon title satisfies the naturalness criterion. In comparison, the results for "Filip Halstensson" include Cambridge History of Scandinavia and a pair of books from Brill. Some other 11th and 12th century kings have an article title with a patronymic, so the format "{name} {patronymic}" is at least as consistent as "{name} of Sweden". Jähmefyysikko (talk) 16:28, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.