Talk:Dreamcatcher (group)

A word about genres

Just because a group or band has one or two songs that use EDM, or that drift into nu metal, or that have metal influences, doesn't mean they are now an EDM group, or a (nu) metal group. Genres are poorly defined at best, and having a laundry list of them in the infobox is not helpful. Please stick to trends and styles that are found throughout the majority of their catalogue, not just a few songs. Less is more. DragonFury (talk) 06:57, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

 Comment: I remember there was a consensus (I believe it was on WT:KO; if needed, one can dig through the archives) that specific genres must be reliably sourced within the body of the article and explicitly describe the group as a whole, rather than synthesizing individual releases, which would essentially create a laundry list and go against the consensus. Reading through this article, it appears they mainly focus on rock music blended with metal. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 10:27, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

I totally agree with both of you. Therefore, I think that the addition of metal is justified. We don't create a lot of genres, which clearly doesn't define Dreamcatcher as a whole. Instead, we just add metal to the rock and K-pop, as it shows up in a lot of Dreamcatcher releases, especially Japanese ones. Tatar on (talk) 13:28, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

By the way, even if we don't mean articles from trusted sources (but according to them, they also emphasize the rock and metal orientation of the band), but to the official Dreamcatcher account on Spotify, they define themselves as a dance pop, rock and metal group. Even on the Korean (and not only) wiki, the definition of the Dreamcatcher genre consists of rock (락), metal (메탈) and... dance pop (댄스 팝). Tatar on (talk) 13:49, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

New Musical Express (NME), an English music magazine, has characterized Dreamcatcher as "Armed with the sounds of punk-rock and metal, Dreamcatcher have been forging their own path in South Korea’s competitive music industry since their debut in 2017" [source]. In an interview with xportnews, member Dami described their group as a "rock-metal" band. She stated, "It wasn’t easy for the team to pursue rock metal. We were often torn between producing more mainstream songs or sticking to our original concept, but we felt that the direction we had been pursuing was well-suited to rock metal, so we pushed ahead with it. As a result, there are people who say they think of us when they hear songs with such guitar sounds, which made us confident that we are on the right track," ("또한 다미는 “팀이 록메탈을 하기까지 순탄했던 것은 아니다. 더 대중성을 향하는 노래를 내야 할까 기존 콘셉트를 유지해야 할까 고민을 많이 했는데, 추구해온 방향과 록메탈이 잘 어울리는 것 같아 밀고 나갔다”며 “덕분에 그런 기타 사운드가 들어간 노래를 들으면 저희를 떠올린다는 분들도 있어 ‘잘 밀고 나가고 있구나’ 확신을 갖게 됐다”고 록메탈 장르를 고집하게 된 이유도 밝혔다.") explaining the reason for their commitment to the rock metal genre [source].

Additionally, in 2022, Teen Vogue recognized their music as encompassing metal and rock styles ("...with edgy rock and metal productions...") in an interview and photoshoot with the members [source]. Furthermore, in an interview with Dailysports, Dreamcatcher members noted that they are perceived as a metal band, and they consider this perception a source of inspiration. Therefore, it's metal too. 178.205.53.101 (talk) 11:44, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Straight of the bat; statements made by the group's members are pretty much the dictionary definition of a non-independent source. They should not be used as a reference for determining the genre of music Dreamcatcher makes. As for the inclusion of metal as a genre; while DC's songs do use metal influences, I would not call the group a metal group. The closest they come to metal are the aforementioned Japanese songs, which only includes about a half dozen original songs, a very small fraction of their overall catalogue. There are quite a few references that do refer to them as metal, but those are general music publications at best. The group isn't featured in publications specific to the metal genre (such as Metal Hammer or Headbanger magazine in Japan), nor do they appear at metal festivals. To me, the current genres of K-pop and rock are sufficient for the infobox, and the metal influences that do exist in their songs should be included solely in the main text instead. DragonFury (talk) 11:59, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Dreamcatcher have been referred to as a "metal-rock band in k-pop" since their debut ("Dreamcatcher’s metal rock sound is rebellious yet unfamiliar", here's another source too: "dreamcatcher in London review: A short and sweet blend of heavy metal meets K-pop") until now and etc. The presence or absence of DC at some festivals does not determine the genre of the band, it is necessary to focus on how they are mentioned in news, music and thematic sources. What you said is your personal opinion and cannot be used as an argument. "I would not...", "To me...". Moreover, it is not something more important than the words of the band members themselves, but I refer to sources (even if we do not take into account the words of the members themselves) that use it as a metal band, along with rock. I have provided enough evidence based on sources, and not on your or my own judgments, that they allegedly have to perform at some concerts somewhere in order to be someone. I specifically didn't even provide resources today that somehow respond to their Japanese releases. All the sources were about their band in general and Korean releases. Therefore, it is decided. 178.205.53.101 (talk) 13:04, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

So then let's review those sources and what they actually say. First up the Korea Herald article, Korea Herald is a reputable source no doubt, but I wouldn't go to them for a thorough understanding what genre a group is. And even that was the case, the article's description of the group as metal is tenuous at best. They describe the group's songs as "heavy and rich with blaring metal elements" and they describe "Scar" as "another metal-rock tune". So basically mentioning individual songs as having metal elements, but stopping short of calling the group itself metal. The second source is Metro UK, also a largely credible source but only in the general sense. Their review of a DC concert uses the word "metal" exactly once in the text, and only in a very general sense. The last source you linked is a site called The Nu-Metal Agenda and I have serious doubts about the credibility of the source here. But even if that wasn't an issue, the article also only talks about a single song ("Vision") and even then the article title is "10 Nu-Pop Tracks You Need To Hear". So "Vision" is a nu-pop song according to this (unreliable) source, not metal. DragonFury (talk) 13:36, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

First of all, it must be said that nu-pop is a subgenre of metal. And using your approach, you can say the same about rock and pop electronic genres. I am also interested in these genres, but there is no need for argumentation from personal experience. Dreamcatcher is a band, which mixes genres and of course, not all songs have one genre or the other. Each Dreamcatcher album consists of a set of different genres (which is what I am talking about), like rock (it is certainly the musical core of the band), various electronic music (and more) and subgenres of metal. Tatar on (talk) 13:51, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Moreover, the japanese releases is an important part of Dreamcatcher's history, promotion and discography and ignoring even this simply doesn't make sense Tatar on (talk) 13:56, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Nu-pop is not a genre or subgenre in anyway. I did a quick search and the only two results that used the phrase "nu-pop" are an entry on Urban Dictionary and the exact NMA article linked above. If this was an actual genre, there would be WAY more discussion using the term. As for the rest of your post; I'm not following your argument, of course DC's music output varies in genres and styles, I never argued against that. But the fact they use metal elements and influences in some of their songs, does not make them a metal band. For that label to stick, they would need to be way more consistent in their output, to the point where credible metal publications start featuring them and talking about them (which is very much not the case now). So that brings me back to my original conclusion; Dreamcatcher is a K-pop group making rock songs with occasional metal inspired elements. DragonFury (talk) 14:01, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

The definition and characteristics that align with "nu-pop" are actually encompassed within the broader subgenre of nu-metal. Tatar on (talk) 14:47, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Nu-metal (In its essence, it can include various genres, including pop structure) potentially leading to the term "nu-pop" being used to describe this hybrid style.

Given this context, it makes sense that the term "nu-pop" might be seen as an offshoot or a facet of nu-metal, rather than a completely separate genre. The confusion likely arises from the evolving nature of music genres and the blending of styles, which can create new terminologies and categorizations over time. In the same Dreamcatcher article, the phrase is literally given that it is nu-metal. As for the rest, I can say that Dreamcatcher is not a rock band, just because they don't have rock everywhere. And I will be right, because they perform not only rock and its subgenres, but also all kinds of other genres. You can't talk about Dreamcatcher as a band of a certain genre. They have enough rock, electronic music with various experiments of pop music, and metal, especially in Japanese releases, but not only. Calling Dreamcatcher a "k-pop band" makes little sense, as does calling it a metal band. 178.205.53.101 (talk) 14:49, 1 July 2024 (UTC)