Wikipedia talk:Service awards

Updating large service ribbons for Grand Tutnum and higher levels

If one reviews the various enWiki awards ribbons one can see that, in general, the small (72px) versions of the ribbons very closely match the larger (120px) versions of the ribbons. However, the large and small ribbons for service awards differ quite greatly from each other beginning at Grand Tutnum. In addition, the award stars used on the current large ribbons do not match the convention used in attaching service stars and 5/16 inch stars to medals and ribbons, viz. a bronze or gold star represents an additional award, while a silver star is used in lieu of five bronze or gold stars. I have taken the liberty of redesigning the large ribbons to use bronze and silver service stars, as those are more appropriate for service awards, as well as redesigning them to match the small ribbons. However, prior to uploading more than twenty images to Commons to create a table (which I have started here), I wanted to know if there was any desire to update those images. — Jkudlick • t • c • s 08:18, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

Sounds OK to me. I can't really visualize it, can you show an example? Or I'm willing to trust your judgement. Herostratus (talk) 14:02, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

@Herostratus: I'll try to upload the images tonight. — Jkudlick • t • c • s 22:27, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

@Herostratus: here is the transcluded table. — Jkudlick • t • c • s 01:14, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Proposed updates to service award ribbons

°	Level name	Current images		Proposed image #1 (service stars)	Proposed image #2 (match small ribbons)
		Small Ribbon	Large Ribbon
1	Registered Editor			No change
2	Novice Editor			No change
3	Apprentice Editor			No change
4	Journeyman Editor			No change
5	Yeoman Editor			No change
6	Experienced Editor			No change
7	Veteran Editor			No change
8	Veteran Editor II
9	Veteran Editor III
10	Veteran Editor IV
11	Senior Editor
12	Senior Editor II
13	Senior Editor III
14	Master Editor
15	Master Editor II
16	Master Editor III
17	Master Editor IV
18	Grandmaster Editor
19	Grandmaster Editor First-Class
20	Vanguard Editor

Well, sure. This looks fine to me. Anybody have any objections? Herostratus (talk) 02:04, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Looks good. No objections. VMS Mosaic (talk) 12:49, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Do you have a preference? I like the striped ribbons since they match the small ones. — Jkudlick • t • c • s 04:17, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Oh I get it, we're 1) assuming the small ribbons are to stay as is, and 2) looking at two possible versions for the large ribbon. OK. Well, they're both good... the idea of matching the small ribbons is a virtue, but the other version is nice in a different way. Can't decide! Herostratus (talk) 22:29, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Dear Jkudlick, Thanks for doing this. It's an improvement in most places. However, I think it really needs a little bit more work! Basically, the design is inconsistent with the naming scheme. For instance "Senior Editor" has four (dark) stars and the next level SE 2 has one (bright) star. A more logical choice would be to keep the groups together, but differentiate clearly between groups while keeping the number of star relatively low. So, Senior Editor: 1 star, SE2: 2 stars, SE3: 3 stars. Followed by Master Editor: 1 star -- ME 4: stars but use thin gold colour marking around the purple or something like this .

For Grandmaster Editor and above, I am not happy that the wheels are supposed to be replaced. What is wrong with the current design? The solution you are proposing for the top three levels is not very elegant and makes these levels indistinct from the levels below. The current design really reflects the naming. Please don't change these. Many thanks! Mootros (talk) 16:07, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

@Mootros: If you go to WP:RIBBONS, you will notice that the vast majority of small ribbons match the large ribbons. The stars I used follow the convention used by service stars where one silver star is used in lieu of five bronze stars, and the striped versions match the smaller ribbons. I think the ribbon designs for Senior Editor and above could be reworked. I will probably do that and re-upload new striped versions. — Jkudlick • t • c • s 03:57, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

I forgot to answer your question about the ship's wheels. Right now, I'm on my phone, and the three ribbons are literally indistinguishable; they are even hard to tell apart on a PC screen. The point of the ribbon is to easily tell what award is represented, so that is why I feel they need to be changed. Not many editors legitimately hold the title of Grandmaster or GM FC, and I don't think there are any legitimate Vanguards, so there won't be too many images being changed. — Jkudlick • t • c • s 04:08, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

I see, this is something from the US forces. I think that's the problem why it seems to make no sense. It's not widely known and there is no apparent link to Wikipedia. Why can we not have something more creative, rather than following something obscure as a uniformed US services?

Yes, I agree there is no point changing the wheels as almost no one legitimately uses them at the moment. Yes, in the long run we can make them more distinguishable. This could easily be done be having a silver wheel for the top level and possibly only two wheels for lower levels. https://upload.luquay.com/wikipedia/commons/d/d3/Veteran_Editor_Ribbon_2_wheels.png Mootros (talk) 05:23, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

I agree the use of the service stars is US-centric, which is part of the reason I prefer the stripes. I recall seeing ribbons with one, two, and three wheels somewhere, and I think those would certainly be distinguishable enough from each other for the top three levels. I can try to make smaller versions of those in lieu of the current striped ones, and I'll eventually make SVGs of all the ribbons. I'm considering different color schemes for the Veteran, Senior, and Master levels. — Jkudlick • t • c • s 05:41, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

Thank you kindly. This sounds great! To be honest I think the lower levels might needs some overhaul too. They look quite scruffy. I very much like the idea of different colours to denote groups. I think you could also combine two colours; the trick would be to have subtle difference/ i.e. shades of different colours for each levels that nonetheless are still clearly distinguishable. This would avoid a potential clash of colours and possible circus look ;-). I trust your judgement; from what you already designed its looks very neat. Cheers! Mootros (talk) 05:51, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

Thanks! I'll start working on them later, but I think converting the lower levels to SVG will do a lot to help them look cleaner, but given what has been discussed already, I may begin a larger overhaul. I'll be sure to post the results here before making changes to the service award templates and pages. There is no need to worry about a "circus look;" I have an interest in heraldry and vexillology, both of which also believe that simpler is usually better. — Jkudlick • t • c • s 06:58, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

@Herostratus, VMS Mosaic, and Mootros: Here is an updated table. I have converted all of the larger ribbons to SVGs with updated designs and proposed names for the higher levels to kind of match the Grandmaster First Class name. I'm not sure why the PNG preview for the Registered Editor ribbons renders that way, but if you look at the original file you can see what I thought I had uploaded; that first level may require a total redesign if SVGs are to be used. I changed the ribbon colors for the Yeoman and Experienced levels to match Journeyman, since it seems somewhat more rational to me. As always, feel free to comment. — Jkudlick • t • c • s 09:14, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

Wow, excellent work! I can see your approach certainly is elegance through a clear and simple design. Two minor points: The light blue for "Apprentice Editor" looks slightly out of place now. I think gold without any dot might be a more logical choice, which will also mirror the sequence between "Veteran Editor" and "Veteran Editor II". The second point, I think the different strip colours between "Veteran Editor II-IV" and the "Senior Editors" is back to front. I feel it might be better to have "silver" strips first and than the "gold" strips. This type of colour progression would then also mirror the sequence between the silver of the "Novice Editor" and gold above, as well as the silver stars and gold wheels. Apart from that almost perfect, IMHO! Many thanks! Mootros (talk) 10:27, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

About the changes in names. I suggested two simple name changes for the lower levels for better consistency. The was not welcomed by one editor. I am happy to have the names reviewed and altered, but I suggest to do this separately from the ribbon design. Thanks! Mootros (talk) 10:43, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

Very nice @Jkudlick! My final comment: To advance your concept of minimalism further, it might be worthwhile to check and possibly fine tune the key colours: Sliver, Gold, Purple. I think, if we have three basic colours (ignoring the red for the tildes), it might further improve the overall appearance and consistency. What I am saying is, you might want to try matching the reappearance of the colours: i.e. the gold of the Apprentice and Journeymen could reappear in the strips of Senior Editors. I think, this slightly darker tone of gold might give more elegance than the brighter yellow and of course links the different levels. Similar the silver of the dots could be identical to the silver of strips and stars, but it possibly already is. See what it looks like; it might make the difference to be top-notch. Cheers, Mootros (talk) 05:10, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

I've made the stripes on the Senior Editor levels and the ship's wheels on the GM/Vanguard levels darker to match the bronze gold of the lower levels (though I kind of like the brighter gold on the wheels). I also matched the silver of the Registered/Novice levels to the silver used at all other levels, and made the tildes and incremental stripes purple. — Jkudlick • t • c • s 06:16, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

Great! Yes, maybe revert to the brighter gold for the wheels; it might give a bit of extra contrast for the top levels. I like the purple tildes! Mootros (talk) 06:24, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

 Done I'll begin working on the smaller ribbons later. — Jkudlick • t • c • s 06:47, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

Proposed updates to service award ribbons

°	Level name	Current designs		Updated designs		Incremental awards
		Large Ribbon	Small Ribbon	Large Ribbon	Small Ribbon	Level 2	Level 3	Level4
1	Registered Editor
2	Novice Editor
3	Apprentice Editor
4	Journeyman Editor
5	Yeoman Editor
6	Experienced Editor					N/A
7	Veteran Editor					N/A
8	Veteran Editor II					N/A
9	Veteran Editor III					N/A
10	Veteran Editor IV					N/A
11	Senior Editor					N/A
12	Senior Editor II					N/A
13	Senior Editor III					N/A
14	Master Editor					N/A
15	Master Editor II					N/A
16	Master Editor III					N/A
17	Master Editor IV					N/A
18	Grandmaster Editor					N/A
19	Grandmaster Editor First-Class					N/A
20	Vanguard Editor					N/A

• I'll adjust the sizes of the SVGs later tonight - I had read that 218x60 was optimal for making SVGs of ribbon bars, but it seems that Wikipedia ribbons are proportionately 20% taller than that. — Jkudlick • t • c • s 09:30, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

These look fine to me. Herostratus (talk) 13:58, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

• @Mootros, Herostratus, and VMS Mosaic: I've updated the SVGs per the comments above. If these are acceptable to everyone, I will make the necessary adjustments to any templates and to the small ribbons so that they match the larger ribbons. — Jkudlick • t • c • s 03:47, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

• @Mootros, Herostratus, and VMS Mosaic: Small ribbons are done. I've just noticed that the medal images for the first six levels will probably need updating if they are to remain visually similar to these new ribbon bars. I do not have the necessary graphics software to make those changes. — Jkudlick • t • c • s 03:37, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

• I'll deal with the change, as long as the old versions are retained so they can still be displayed, including by those who currently do so.— Godsy ^(TALK_CONT) 07:51, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

Wait, what? There's no need to retain the old versions. We just load the new images over the old ones, right? We don't want or need two or more versions of the same thing to be be extant, right? Herostratus (talk) 12:58, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

Agree, no point in a parallel scheme. Everything will properly display as images are updated. Mootros (talk) 03:40, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

Keep the "old" ones and allow editors the choice, or, maybe just "go back" to the original ones. Several editors did a good faith project here, but, for me at least, the new approach kind of lessens the fun of seeing these ribbons on user pages. The "older" ones come across to me as colorful, festive, and brighter. These new ribbons have a World War II look. Was this change on rfc, or other noticeboards? Thanks. Randy Kryn 02:08, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

@Randy Kryn: The only notices that I saw on any templates prompted discussion here, and not at any other noticeboards. There is no requirement for a formal RfC, so I began discussion here regarding the mismatch between the small and large ribbons. I saw that I was getting comments from editors who helped create this system years ago who supported the idea and liked the way I was designing the ribbons, so I took the ball and ran with it. If you wish to begin a formal RfC, I will gladly participate and abide by the results.

Regarding whether to display the old ribbons - that is of course one's own choice. There is a real-world history of being allowed to choose whether to display an award which was superseded or the new award, but once the recipient began displaying the new award, they were not allowed to display the old one. I have no problem if others choose to display the older awards. — Jkudlick • t • c • s 03:20, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

Sorry for being late to the discussion, but I just noticed that this change was implemented, and I dislike it. The old color scheme looked better and differentiated each level, in addition to looking like "real" ribbons and not some computer-generated shapes that we now have. It would be nice if the templates for the awards included parameters that allows for the choice between the new and old designs, maybe with the new designs as the default. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 00:40, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

I wasn't quite happy with how the large ribbons looked, so I added shadows to give depth. I will do the same to the small ribbons in the coming week. — Jkudlick ⚓ t ⚓ c ⚓ s 21:29, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Thanks! Herostratus (talk) 02:07, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

Tutnam image and caption

Small thing, but why is there mention of a cigarette burn on the image of Tutnam? We should all be anti-smoking here, and it's annoying to see smoking acknowledged as part of being a veteran editor. The caption would be adequate if it just said: "This editor is a Tutnum of the Encyclopedia and is entitled to display this Book of Knowledge." --Zefr (talk) 21:30, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

Oh, for GOD'S SAKE! EEng 23:50, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

@Zefr: You aren't required to display any specific image, so if it offends you, then don't display it. — Jkudlick ⚓ t ⚓ c ⚓ s 09:57, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

How about "This editor is a Tutnum of the Encyclopedia and is entitled." --Jameboy (talk) 00:59, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

@Zefr: I agree that the cigarette burn is objectionable. I use the alternative awards. I am less than halfway to {{Tutnum III}} and have been quietly hoping that the cigarette burn will be removed from that award through to {{Labutnum III}} inclusive, before I accrue enough edits to encounter the dilemma of whether or not to keep using that award series. If anybody reading this has the time and inclination to substitute the cigarette burn with something more justifiable ("dog-eared cover"? "'overdue' notice from library"?), I would greatly appreciate it. Zazpot (talk) 00:29, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

Keeping library books past their due date is highly objectionable and I don't think we should be normalizing it. EEng 01:25, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

"We should all be anti-smoking here."^{[who?][original research?][neutrality is disputed][attribution needed][opinion][editor needs IPA][excessive citations]}Herostratus (talk) 05:45, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

Health effects of tobacco#References? Oh, and this sort of thing? Zazpot (talk) 08:22, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

Do any of the awards have diamonds? I ask because they might be blood diamonds. The parchment scrolls -- are they cruelty-free? One award has a coffee-cup stain -- is it fair-trade coffee? Can't something just be fun without everything being so goddam deadly serious all the time? EEng 10:53, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

The tobacco industry isn't "fun". That is the point being made in this section of the talk page. Zazpot (talk) 23:10, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

(To answer your questions: the page indicates no diamonds or parchment, and the coffee would surely depend upon the editor. To answer your possible next question: yes, I am aware that these are just graphics on a screen, not real items; but they exist in order to represent, to some degree, the editors who choose to use them. A chewed pencil or a bookmark, I can "get behind"; a coffee stain, meh; but the cigarette burns would seriously misrepresent me, and presumably Zefr too. Don't get me wrong: I am on the whole glad that the alternative awards exist, and grateful to whoever created them. (Herostratus, maybe?) Zazpot (talk) 23:12, 18 September 2018 (UTC) )

This isn't "the tobacco industry" -- it's some made-up stuff in cyberspace. Get some perspective. It occurs to me that the chewed pencil could be a choking hazard for younger editors, and the sticky notes contribute to the solid waste crisis and overflowing landfills. I see that as an alternative for Senior Editor II, we offer the Rhodium Editor Star, but rhodium is highly toxic. It's terrible that we make editors choose between a viscous vice like smoking and a toxic metal medal. Oh wait, I forgot -- this is just some made-up stuff in cyberspace, not real life. EEng 15:50, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

I refer you to my previous comment. (Also: people incapable of being trusted with a pencil should not be entrusted with editing an encyclopaedia; sticky paper notes are compostable; the Rhodium Editor Star is the award for Senior Editors, it is not part of the Alternative Awards series; and finally, unlike cigarettes, rhodium is not known to be toxic.) Zazpot (talk) 22:30, 19 September 2018 (UTC); edited 07:58, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

• Do not alter your posts after others have responded [1]. WP:TPG violations have gotten you in trouble before, so you should know better.
• You need to lighten up. Really.

EEng 11:11, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

• Per WP:REDACT, it seems to be OK to edit one's comments after others have responded, as long as the edits do not "deprive any replies of their original context". (My edit above did not do so, so does not seem to be a WP:TPG breach.) However, ideally, any such edits should be formatted in a specific way. I have now applied this formatting to my comment above.
• Per WP:IDENTIFYUNCIVIL, spare me your personal remarks. Zazpot (talk) 01:02, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

• It's not for you to judge whether a silent change to your post "deprives any replies of their original context". All but trivial changes need to be marked.
• Please stop trying to interpret behavioral guidelines to other editors. If you don't like that advice you can always open an ANI thread and see what happens.

EEng 03:00, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

@Zazpot: May I refer you to my comment of 17 November last year? You yourself said the awards "represent, to some degree, the editors who choose to use them." If a particular depiction of an award offends you, then choose to use a different one. There are plenty of other options. — Jkudlick ⚓ t ⚓ c ⚓ s 02:26, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

Unacceptable! All heresy must be hunted down and stamped out! EEng 03:55, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

@Jkudlick: thanks for your comment. You say, There are plenty of other options. However, within the "Alternative Award" series, there are no other options. As for the alternatives to the Alternatives: the "Award" series has not yet held any appeal for me (it is much too militaristic); and the options at Wikipedia:Userboxes/Wikipedia/Personal statistics, besides not being part of the series that does (other than the cigarette burn) appeal to me, are either not part of a series or are neither humorous nor bookish. So, by far the most preferable solution, from my perspective at least, would be for the cigarette burn to be replaced with something not obviously objectionable, as I suggested above. Zazpot (talk) 06:43, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

awards

I have been registered since February 2008 and have about 4400 edits. Even if we (probably over-generously) add 50% more edits made on other Wikis and while not logged in, that only qualifies me as the service award that signals 1.5 years of service. Furthermore, I have no realistic hope of ever achieving another level - it will take me another ten years!

There is only one way to interpret this: that people like me has no business being on Wikipedia, and that our contributions are insignificant. My only tactic would be to turn every edit I make into five - committing a "save" after every sentence, rather than posting a coherent whole.

I certainly will not award myself a badge the kids reach in a year's time (level 5 if I'm being strict) award when I feel I have a good grasp on Wikipedia and have been around essentially "forever" (over ten years).

The only "service" these awards encourage is giving over your life to Wikipedia, and I heartily wish there was an alternate set of awards for regular people like me where I don't have to compete with compulsive Wikipedians.

Best regards, CapnZapp (talk) 10:22, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

@CapnZapp: It's the quality of your edits that matters, not the quantity. Thank you for all your edits. For an alternate set of awards, have you looked at Wikipedia:Userboxes/Wikipedia/Personal statistics? Happy editing! GoingBatty (talk) 16:40, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

I mean, I see what you're saying Cap'n, but that would be kind of an argument against any awards, here or in real life -- "So and so got an award for perfect attendance, and this is wrong, because the rest of us occasionally get sick or need a day off school, and he was just lucky and/or obsessed; so let's eliminate such awards". And this is something with which reasonable people can disagree. Herostratus (talk) 19:48, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

I believe you're mistaking my position :-) Am I saying "I want existing rewards for hyper-competitive people removed"? No. But is Wikipedia really a place where most or even many editors are like that? No, I would argue this is a place where the overwhelming majority of editors are not. So why not offer rewards for the editors that actually make up Wikipedia? Regards CapnZapp (talk) 09:43, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

Repeat: "For an alternate set of awards, have you looked at Wikipedia:Userboxes/Wikipedia/Personal statistics?"  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:38, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

Change in templates... I mean let's talk about this?

An editor, @Gwillhickers:, changed the templates... at least, she changed {{Master Editor}}, so I assume she changed the others as well. I'm not seeing any discussion of this? Maybe it's somewhere else and I missed it. If not...

This is a template that is transcluded on many pages, so I mean I'm skeptical if it should be changed without discussion. In addition, I'm not convinced on the merits that this an actual improvement. It's OK; so was the old one. I think I like the old one a wee bit better. Also, the sizes are not identical, so this may affect some people's formatting, and for a heavily transcluded template... I'm willing to be convinced, and I'm not averse to stuff being changed from time to time for the sake of it; organizations do this all time with their logos, etc. But I'd like to see what others have to say.

Here's the previous version: This editor is a Master Editor and is entitled to display this Platinum Editor Star.

And here's the proposed new version: This editor is a Master Editor and is entitled to display this Platinum Editor Star.

So, what say you? Herostratus (talk) 17:52, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Hello Herostratus. Thanks for your friendly words. Imo, the overall appearance has improved greatly with lettering in the captions centered and not staggered, while instead of a plain white background for every award the colors now correspond with the color themes of the ribbon and star in most cases. As these are awards, a more formal presentation seemed in order. The full sized stars and captions already had varying sizes to begin with (see below). Since almost all editors only display one such award on their user-page, there is really no need for every such award to be identical in size. Also, the awards in user-box form stack nicely together with other user-boxes, as their widths have remained unchanged. It was at least my impression that editors would approve of these changes, and since I began doing this more than a year ago, thousands of editors have seen the changes and no one has objected. Hope this isn't anything that will cause anyone disappointment or other issues. Of course if there is a clear consensus to revert everything back I will abide by it. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:09, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Original awards had sizes that also varied:

This user is a Registered Editor and is entitled to display this Service Badge.

This editor is an Experienced Editor and is entitled to display this Service Badge.

This editor is a Veteran Editor and is entitled to display this Iron Editor Star.

This editor is a Grandmaster Flash and is entitled to display this Philosopher's stone Editor Star with the Neutronium Superstar.

This editor is a Master Editor IV and is entitled to display this Orichalcum Editor Star.

This editor is a Vanguard Editor and is entitled to display this Unobtainium Editor Star with the Neutronium Superstar hologram.

• When I updated my service award a couple weeks ago (from VE to VE II) I thought I was just losing it. Personally, I like the new versions a little better than the previous ones. -- Dolotta (talk) 23:38, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Incest

Is there an award for working on these awards? EEng 03:20, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

	The Barnstar Barnstar
	You have received the Barnstar Barnstar for being a barnstar star. A world without barns, or stars, is a world with no place to keep animals and no way to navigate at night if you're an 18th century mariner! So keep on "barning"! Herostratus (talk) 01:46, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

How foolish of me to have doubted. EEng 04:31, 15 September 2018 (UTC)